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"Fatherhood, to me, is one of those pathways to gender equality, to healthy masculinity. If there's one thing I would love to promote, it's active fathers and healthy masculinity."

Social advocate and former Nominated Member of Parliament Anthea Ong spoke with Corinna Lim, executive director of the Association of Women for Action and Research (AWARE), about what it means to work toward gender equality in the first episode of Ong's podcast Shades of Love.

Ong and Lim discussed their own experiences with gender growing up, being women in corporate workplaces, how toxic masculinity actually harms men as well, and the role that men must play in order to achieve gender equality.

An excerpt of their conversation has been adapted and reproduced below.

Everything should be seen through lens of gender

Lim: We should look at everything with a gender lens. We should. We should not be gender-blind. We have to actually be gender-sensitive. I mean, it's because we are gender blind that we have so few senior female leaders.

And of course, the society also is [part of it]. If the home expects that it is the woman's role to to be the caregiver, then that will also impact how far they can go.

Nowadays, I think we actually should look at men. When we keep thinking, "You know, gender equality, we have to work on a women," it's like, "No, we actually really have to work on both equally!"

In fact, I would say we should work on men more because we just haven't been focusing on them at all for so many years.

Ong: I'm so glad that you raised this because I was actually going to bring this up. Because very often, this whole gender equality conversation tends to focus on women.

And that is important, obviously, because there are women who also have an unconscious bias about themselves. [Lim: There are disadvantages!] Of course, there are still [those] disadvantages, historically and socially lah, that women still have to contend with.

But I really think that what you said is so important — that this is not just about us focusing on women. In fact, I'm with you; I think we should actually focus on men more if we do want gender equality as a fundamental value of our society.

You are absolutely right, because now we have the opportunities for both men and women to live fulfilled lives.

Therefore, if we do want to still see families, then the conversation also has to be very different, [like what] you talked about [with] care[giving]. 

Can women "have it all"?

Ong: What do you think about some people saying that women can't have it all?

Lim: Can men? You know what I mean? No one can "have it all". Even me without kids, right, and having very specific goals in life — even I can't "have it all".

I think that when people say that, it's — I suppose — trying to counter this idea when women want to do well at work as well, and then they're also mothers.

Ong: I'm actually asking you this because I've actually heard a lot of people asking women this. And I feel that it's important for us to put it out there. And you're right; why only ask women?

Because it's true, you're absolutely spot on. Because, "can men?" But no one really goes and asks men this question. I certainly haven't come across it.

Lim: The men who can "have it all", it's because they don't really care for, perhaps, family. They're not so active as fathers. That is changing. But if all you need to do is focus on your career, you might think that "Yes, I have it all."

But really, when I think about this, I think about my dad at 60 when he had no more work, and then what did he have left? His friends were his work friends. And that's why he had nothing. And the achievements? His company moved on. He's forgotten.

Toxic masculinity hurts boys and men

Ong: I would also argue the flip side of boys being encouraged to lead and demonstrate self-confidence from young without especially expressing emotions, I feel that that's also a big reason for the state of mental health now.

I'm saying this because we actually have statistics that say that men are two-and-a-half times more likely to take their own lives in Singapore. And our teenage boys' suicides have gone to record high levels.

So I think there's also this need to look at this "men don't cry" or "boys don't cry" [mindset]. We need to also change that.

Lim: "Toxic masculinity" [is a term] which some people misunderstand as me saying that masculinity and men are toxic.

This is not the idea. The idea is that there are some things that are masculine norms. And, in fact, masculine norms are more tightly-policed: cannot wear makeup, cannot wear a dress, cannot be feminine in their mannerisms.

And girls can get away with all of this: we can wear pants, we can be tomboys, right? It is much harder for men.

So the norms that men have are policed much more. So that's [number] one.

And [number] two is that there are some norms that are not so healthy. And you talked about this: that boys cannot cry. And if human beings are not allowed to cry, why would we have tear ducts?

This is not a healthy norm, this idea that you cannot cry.

And when you have to keep suppressing this from boyhood to manhood, that does things to your system and who you are.

So these are some things that are not healthy. And these are what people call "toxic masculinity" — the fact that you can only be a man in such restricted ways, that's number one. And number two, that some of these norms are, in themselves, not healthy.

In the past, there used to be norms of, "Men must have power over women", right? "Men must have power over other men." "Men must resort to violence."

These ideas, they're not exactly what we will call healthy.

Toxic masculinity is different from masculinity

Ong: Because it's not so immediately obvious — I think both to men and women, but especially to men and young boys — how do we get boys and men to know this difference between masculinity and toxic masculinity?

Lim: We just think about which norms are what we call unhealthy norms.

Parents should not say to their boys, "Boys don't cry. Stop crying." Or "Boys will be boys." These are just some of the things that you [should] just try to stop doing, just be conscious of this.

Some of the more normal, "neutral" norms: men as protectors, and men as providers. Now, men as providers, in today's world, you don't want to really promote that idea so much.

What about the tender side of that strong man? Why don't we promote that? It's still strong, but it shows like, "Okay, I can be strong in this way that is caring for my children," or whatever it is.

We need to use some of these ideas and cast them in a different light and in a different picture. We need to have more positive role models of what healthy masculinity looks like.

Ong: My analogy would be, can a fish see water? How can [boys and men] see that this is actually not healthy, that these are actually toxic behaviours? So, I guess the way to counter that is to show what are healthy behaviours, for boys and men.

Lim: There is one other aspect which is kind of interesting, which you find more in male cultures than in female cultures, which is that of dominance.

Men will tell you about alpha males, about the need to really be respected — respect, for men, is very important, and they have to excel, more so than women, they need to be "up there".

And because of this need to keep having to be dominant, top dog — [Ong: that one-upmanship] — this is where it can become toxic.

What was not toxic before, when you have a group of men, people then start to circulate, perhaps, objectifying pictures of women. That is a show of masculinity. Because in a group of men, you need to somehow stand out, so you do this.

And actually, maybe many of the men in the group do not really want to see this, but no one's going to actually say, "Please stop this."

You will lose social capital. People will think like, "Hey, this is what men do."

So I think this is where it can become problematic, as a group. And this is one of the things that men as bystanders will have to think about: "How do we try to make sure this doesn't happen so much?"

Fatherhood as a pathway to gender equality

Ong: Yeah, that's powerful. How do men as bystanders actually play a part in promoting healthy masculinity?

Lim: It has to be men leading that conversation. [Ong: Is that a challenge?] Yes, that is. How many men do you know that want to lead this conversation?

And then when the women want to lead, they can't. They're not going to be accepted. So men have to lead this.

But the young men are changing. Two guys approached me a few days ago, and they have a mental health app that they want to do. I'm like, "Oh my gosh! This is so refreshing." Because they've gone through therapy.

And so men are beginning to actually seek help when they need and, you know, [embracing] the softer side. They're not all about "men [and] boys don't cry."

Ong: What about the role of fathers?

Lim: Fatherhood, to me, is one of those pathways to gender equality, to healthy masculinity. If there's one thing I would love to promote, it's active fathers and healthy masculinity.

Ong: Role-modelling healthy masculinity, not just to their sons, but also in the way they actually treat their daughters and treat the mother of [their] children, actually. That role modelling would be a major part of this gender equality that we're moving towards.

Lim: And the other idea that I would love to see the end of is "boys will be boys". As if we expect so little of boys, that they're just going to be badly-behaved and commit all sorts of these misdemeanours.

But that shouldn't be. So I think if we can work on these two, we will be able to promote gender equality [and] reduce sexual assaults and all these misdemeanours and offences.

Gender equality is in the interest not only of women, but also men, family, and society

Ong: I think this conversation just confirms for me that gender equality really is an ongoing effort. And it's really one [where] we can't just do it in patches and sporadic groups.

This really has to be a whole-of-society [effort], actually starting from the whole-of-family, as you and I talked about — bringing the role of the father into this conversation, this intentional effort to promote, and to think about, gender equality as a fundamental value of the family that he's actually part of.

And then, actually seeing all of that become part of the whole society's value as well. But starting from the family, it's just really important.

Lim: I'm beginning to realise more and more that gender equality is not really about "This is in the interest of women". It's in the interest of men and family.

Ong: And society. Absolutely. I think that's a really important thing to leave our listeners with — that it is actually really not about women.

Lim: No, [it's] not just about women. Not at all.

Parts of this conversation were edited and reorganised for clarity, grammar, and flow. Listen to the full Shades of Love episode here.

The podcast's second episode, in which Ong and public health researcher and LGBTQ+ advocate Rayner Tan chat about imposter syndrome, sexual orientation, and substance use, is also available here.

Photo by Unsplash / Ryan Franco.

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